May 22, 2021

029 - Dr Francesca Brown - Healthy Vet Professionals = Healthy Vet Clinic Bottom Lines

029 - Dr Francesca Brown - Healthy Vet Professionals = Healthy Vet Clinic Bottom Lines

Send us a text Part 2 (of 2) with Dr Francesa Brown on how to have a healthy vet clinic and a healthy bottom line. Dr Brown covers: What KPIs to measureWhere to start in supporting your team to be / get / stay healthyWhat questions to askHow to implement and how not to implementJohari WindowsThe real and true cost of staff turnoverShe also asks for input / support / information as she gets ready to start her next research project. VetStaffleading veterinary sector recruitment in New Zealan...

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Season 1 Interviews Workplace Culture

Send us a text

Part 2 (of 2) with Dr Francesa Brown on how to have a healthy vet clinic and a healthy bottom line.

Dr Brown covers:

  • What KPIs to measure
  • Where to start in supporting your team to be / get / stay healthy
  • What questions to ask
  • How to implement and how not to implement
  • Johari Windows
  • The real and true cost of staff turnover

She also asks for input / support / information as she gets ready to start her next research project.

VetStaff
leading veterinary sector recruitment in New Zealand | veterinarians | locums | nurses

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Struggling to get results from your job advertisements?
If so, then shining online as a good employer is essential to attracting the types of veterinary professionals who're a perfect cultural fit for your clinic.

The VetClinicJobs job board is the place to post your next job vacancy - to find out more get in touch with Lizzie at VetClinicJobs


WEBVTT

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welcome to episode 29 of pores claws, and wit noses.

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The Kiwi veterinary sector podcast, celebrating all creatures great and small, and the fantabulous professionals.

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Who look after them all.

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I'm your show host Julie south.

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This is the second episode of the two part series with Dr.

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Francesca brown of the Otago Polytech.

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If you haven't listened to the first part yet, I highly recommend that you do that before you carry on with this episode, because this one kind of slots into that one, you can find the first part as episode 28 at paws claws, wet noses dot F M I'll put the show notes on, or put the link on this week's show notes as well.

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Uh, this week, Dr.

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Francesca carries on from where we finished up last week, we talk more about leadership KPIs to measure in your clinic and then help.

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And then the help that Dr.

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Francesca is asking of you as a clinic, owner, or manager for the next research that she's embarking on.

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If you're attending the combined fitness fair conference this year in Christchurch coming up pretty soon and June or the third week in June, 2021, be sure to register for her presentation as part of the business track.

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And if you haven't already please click the follow button on your favorite podcast channel so that you don't miss out on future episodes of paws claws with noses.

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They count for any podcasts that you're listening to follow, click the follow button.

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It doesn't cost anything to do that.

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An old vet told my father when he was a student in Glasgow.

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He said, if you want to be a success in veterinary practice, just keep the bowels open and just arrested.

00:02:11.134 --> 00:02:11.534
God.

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Nutrition is not an opinion.

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It's a science.

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They called me that weird herbal needle.

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That, and I, I just remember thinking.

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Well, I'm still gonna do it cause I know it works and I've got the research to back it from reminiscences of the real James Harriet son to Pete nutrition, to acupuncture the big podcast, discusses current animal health issues from around the world.

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I'm veterinarian Brian greeter from New Zealand, just search for the fit podcast.

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Wherever you get your podcasts from paws, claws and wet noses is sponsored by vet staff.

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If you've never heard of it, staff it's new, Zealand's only full service recruitment agency.

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100% dedicated to the veterinary sector and Fitz staff has been around since 2015 and works nationwide from Kate, rehang it to the bluff and everywhere in between as well as helping Kiwis fit staff.

00:03:08.969 --> 00:03:14.729
Also hubs overseas, qualified veterinarians find work and art here, or New Zealand.

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Fit staff.co dot indeed.

00:03:22.689 --> 00:03:25.539
We actually saw it in the research with the employers so that they had it right.

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And the employer said, no, not quite.

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And so feedback is really, really important and regular feedback.

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There are surveys like gout 12, which is, you know, got.

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12 questions, looking at wellbeing at different levels from the basic stuff.

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So it's kind of designed a little bit like Maslow's hierarchy, you know, where there's the basic needs and then up to really quite high performance areas.

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And you can use that, or I, uh, what I used and.

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The research I did is I designed a work environment survey based on what I'd been exposed to in education, but tailored it for veterinary practice.

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Then also particularly challenging areas and veterinary practice.

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But we know I imagined we're not looked at that against gout 12 later.

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It was a similar kind of thing as well.

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It was looking at basic, we basic needs been met trust in the team.

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Respect what, what's your feeling around leadership?

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And, you know, we think that the leadership's kind of transformation or is it dictatorial?

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That kind of thing.

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I looked at things like.

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Did they think that they were being paid enough to meet their own financial needs?

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So it's not about asking what people are paid.

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It's asking them are your needs being met because everyone's needs are different.

00:04:25.285 --> 00:04:28.064
And, you know, there's a certain amount level that people needed.

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And this was one thing actually in these three high-performing practices, and this is not an excuse to poorly pay, but that.

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They stripped practices still weren't performing that well on pay.

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It was about 60% agreement that they were being paid enough to meet their financial needs.

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And it was both fits.

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Uh, so the, the loss on how high they scored a that was beaten allied bitten professionals.

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It wasn't just the bitten professionals.

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So they didn't, they, they hadn't scored as well on that as everything else, they were well on the 80% and higher.

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Um, but looking at your basic needs, Respect, uh, I looked at position descriptions.

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Did they know what their job was?

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You know, those kinds of things.

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Did they think that they had a professional development plan that was helping to develop them, you know, or, uh, and you know, talking about funds and things to do that because one of the things with.

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Staff is one of the needs of staff has, is actually they need to have a pathway, some sort of professional development and practices would go, well, I don't need anyone more than that.

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So why would I bet it's not about that.

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It's about developing the person and making them feel valued.

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So I'm going to develop you make you feel valued.

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Maybe a position will develop there because of the skills that they grow into or do you know, it's okay to grow them out of your job.

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If you really don't want to grow your business and you want to sit here, why then grow that person out of the job and take someone else on, you know, It's the right thing to do.

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So I was looking at those sorts of things in the feedback, and then what we did was, you know, what I would do say if we were doing that on a regular basis is look at well, what were the things that were the poor scores that we could actually make the biggest difference on and go right here are three goals for this year.

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Not, not try and do 25 goals because it's not achievable.

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Choose the three that are going to make the biggest difference, but not as the boss, keep the team to choose what are the three things.

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If we're going to choose three things this year, Get a better score on what are they going to be, and then rerun exactly the same survey again, 12 months later and see did those things shift, but what our shifter cause sometimes.

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If one thing shifts, it'll shift other things too.

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So it's not, you know, it's not a click, you know, you don't just go, I'm just going to meet her those again.

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You've got to measure everything else's and then look at it again and go, where are we going next year?

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So if you don't have that, you actually don't know.

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Um, it's, it's a blind spot, not knowing what your staff are actually thinking.

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And yeah.

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Yes.

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It would be really nice to think that the staff will always tell you, but they won't even in the best cultures, there's some people just never say anything.

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And in poor cultures, least people will say things.

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Yeah.

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And so by giving them a, uh, an outlet to say it, and then not, I think one of the things we're feedback and people who aren't used to receiving feedback is that it's a fence of.

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And feedback can be really, really offensive.

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So it's actually learning is the receiver of feedback to actually go, what are, I don't think that, so why do other people think that what what's the view on, on that and how can we make things better rather than going, oh my God, I've got to bet that feedback away because I feel offended by it.

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So as a really challenging thing to do, but when you get your head around it, feedback comes so much more valuable.

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And as a team, you can work together to improve things.

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Um, cause often the feedback is not personal.

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It's not actually personal.

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It's just the way things are done.

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It might be process driven.

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It might be communication driven.

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One of the, the Gallup questions is that, or the, the, one of the Q 12 is that the, the manager that the employee feels like they are.

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Needed and respected at work because the manager checks and with them, was that a regular standard operating procedure in these clinics?

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How often did they meet great offer?

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It wasn't always formal.

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So in one of them they meet, I think they were meeting weekly for about 15 minutes.

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They were catching up, but another one, it was more done in formerly during the day that makes sure that they went around and had a chat to everybody.

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And maybe that helped.

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And with the task, well, just chatting to them and saying how things were getting on.

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So it varied between the practices, but what they tried to do is make sure that there was a one-on-one conversation.

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Regularly with each of the staff.

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They also talked about having, you know, I'm open door policies and making sure that staff felt like they could come and talk to them, but not in a way where it was disruptive.

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So, you know, they would say, you know, have you got time now for 10?

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Or can we make a time for chit?

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So not, not just that constant, you can come in anytime and dump on me.

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Um, but in a, in a more controlled way, but they all, and the reporting from the staff was they felt they could go and approach the.

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The leadership team if they needed to, but a step back from that was also, I can talk to my colleagues if I think somethings.

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So I think.

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One of the things in a healthy team situation is that you don't always go to the boss when there's a problem.

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Your first step is to just talk to the person while there's problems later, and this was happening and these practices, they felt like they could have the conversations at a low level and it didn't have to escalate it a lot.

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I've heard that some clinics have like timeout spaces.

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Well zones when a professional is just it, you know, they've just had a horrible experience or a horrible outcome, and they just need to, to, to just decompress.

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Do you all clinics have that as well?

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Yep.

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They will hit okay.

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Solely a timeout room, but they all had a staff room space.

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So there was a space in a knot.

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We make the operating table, the staff room, you know, it was actually the head of staff room space where staff could go, these guys all made sure they had T-Rex together.

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Now one of the practices was bigger, so they had the two shift to break.

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So they had half the team and then half the team.

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So.

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Like I said, I could keep running the smaller ones they do.

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They would do it all, you know, all at one time where they would stop and pause, but also all of them allowed the staff to walk away for five minutes.

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One of them had a nice garden area where they could sleep out, which was not client space.

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It was a staff space, um, where they could walk out and.

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You know, take a deep breath or, you know, if it wasn't tea time, then the staff rooms were empty.

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People could walk away.

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One of the practices was starting to introduce mindfulness in the morning where they had a session for five to 10 minutes each morning, just getting everyone in the zine and breathing together as a group morning, Taiz, it's really easy for the receptionist to.

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To be excluded from team events.

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So did this, did these clinics when they had their combined morning teas?

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Where the receptionist's part of those as well.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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So they, they very much were inclusive.

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And this is actually going back to the language conversation.

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They, they talked about the team is that the whole team, you know, they didn't talk about the vets or the veterinary.

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So that was the team run and the bank, no, it was the whole team and everybody had a, um, a valuable, um, part to play.

00:11:15.004 --> 00:11:17.884
And another way that, that was shown to was one.

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Take the climate were really hot on telling me how, when they do rounds and they talked about clients and case or cases, sorry.

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Um, they would ask the opinion of.

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The veterinary nurse, the keynote hand, you know, if the receptionist had been involved, you know, maybe they had a bit of a chat with the client, they would be involved as well, so that they could get all those different perspectives on what was happening, what was going to be the best for this animal.

00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:40.379
Yeah.

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I like, you know, often the front, you know, the front of house, people find out more about the loving environment of the animal and the client than the vet.

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Does, you know, those sort of things.

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Yeah.

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Which make a big difference to what you're going to do.

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Don't know whether you'll be able to answer it.

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Two questions: do you know what the consult times were for these clinics?

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I didn't ask specifically, but I'm pretty sure they were 15 minutes, so they weren't extra long ones.

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And I didn't, you know, all those things in hindsight would have been good to do.

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I didn't delve into whether they lengthened the consults and actually charged for them.

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So they did.

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I know they definitely linked them the consults when they were needed, but I'm not sure if they yeah.

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Hey, no extra charges for them.

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Yeah.

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And do you know, second Christian, do you know whether these clinics were, whether their fees were market comparable or were they more or lower, higher or lower than, okay.

00:12:32.585 --> 00:12:35.585
You know, I didn't, I didn't look specifically into those for them.

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I know one of them was quite an expensive clinic and the clients told me that, but they still wanted to go there.

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So w you know, one clinic.

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Pure location, large city, you know, it's expensive to have a building and near and functional in their area.

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Um, and the client said if there's one thing that changed it with a favor at the same time, though, you know, they're all saying, we love this place and we're always coming back and the staff are great and they care for my animal, you know, everything's positive.

00:13:01.144 --> 00:13:01.504
Yeah.

00:13:01.565 --> 00:13:04.894
Um, it's only when you force them to say, well, what's one thing you'd change that.

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That was, you know, and actually it was only.

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It wasn't that, you know, it wasn't that whole entire, it was maybe half the clients put that down, but the others had lots of other little things.

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Insurance was insurance, pet insurance, pat of.

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Of the clinic.

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So high level of pet insurance at there at the clinic that I just talked about, um, that had relatively high fees as well.

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They also had high pet insurance.

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They, and I said, how have you done that?

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I said, I said, it's your clientele?

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Isn't it.

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It's where you are.

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And they went, no, our clientele, uh, across the spectrum.

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So they have rushed to poor clientele and they said they didn't, as far as they were aware on what they'd done, they didn't have.

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It wasn't more insurance at one end or anything like that.

00:13:45.764 --> 00:13:47.085
They had insurance across the board.

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They said it's because they believed in it.

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They explained it to the clients in a way because they believed it.

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And then the clients believed it and bought it that way.

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Any of these clinics paid the teams, a base salary and.

00:14:04.029 --> 00:14:07.090
Uh, KPI some kind of KPI bonus,

00:14:07.169 --> 00:14:09.600
not the three clinics that were the three ones.

00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:15.360
There was another practice that did, um, it was done even when it was done evenly across the board.

00:14:15.899 --> 00:14:18.299
Um, that particular practice had heaps of perks as well.

00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:18.750
It was.

00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:19.200
Yeah.

00:14:19.590 --> 00:14:29.730
So this is quite another interesting thing that would be interesting to look at as there's quite a lot of pics that come with working in a veterinary practice and some practice have an incredible number of pigs, but.

00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:34.820
I don't know that practices are all that good at valuing them and the salary package.

00:14:35.059 --> 00:14:39.409
And sometimes it's hard because if you go to get free Veet consults, so I've got teen animals.

00:14:39.409 --> 00:14:40.759
So I do really well out of it.

00:14:40.820 --> 00:14:42.289
Whereas someone else has only got one.

00:14:42.289 --> 00:14:44.509
They don't do quite as well, so it's quite hard to value it.

00:14:44.509 --> 00:14:46.779
But, um, I think there is a value in.

00:14:47.210 --> 00:14:59.149
Some of those things, which could be, you know, looked at alongside the salaries there's being, you know, uh, so some, you know, yes, the salary is a poor and use that need to be dealt with, but there are some benefits we forget to advertise, like yes, as a seller,

00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:04.250
I've put together a package for a vet.

00:15:04.269 --> 00:15:12.730
and there was that got an increase in actual increase in salary.

00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:15.190
They also got.

00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:22.549
Other benefits and the other benefits amounted to about$20,000 per annum.

00:15:23.539 --> 00:15:30.500
And there was more, so that was the first 12 months at the 24 month Mac.

00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:36.980
There was more still and yeah, they add up and, and the clinic.

00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:37.580
Yeah.

00:15:38.254 --> 00:15:42.455
Is the, the longevity of the staff is very, very long.

00:15:42.904 --> 00:15:52.924
Um, you know, some of the, the staff have seen clients, kids come through, you know, clients and then the kids come through the practice.

00:15:53.424 --> 00:15:57.565
And, you know, that tells you something about the practice pinnacle culture.

00:15:57.774 --> 00:16:03.455
It's one of the things, um, even though, um, you know, these practices still were not as low as some of the others, but a little bit lower on.

00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:08.750
You know, whether their financial needs were being met, they all said, I love working here.

00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:09.860
The culture is so good.

00:16:09.889 --> 00:16:13.850
I want to stay because I don't think I'd find such a good culture somewhere else.

00:16:13.850 --> 00:16:21.830
And, you know, they felt that they were well looked after where I was speak, did well valued, you know, all of the things that people want and that they could do their job and unpaid it.

00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:23.019
Okay.

00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:32.379
So somebody is listening to this and they're thinking, I, I need, I need, I want, hopefully I want.

00:16:33.289 --> 00:16:36.139
Because with want comes desire.

00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:40.789
I want to change how things are in my clinic.

00:16:41.049 --> 00:16:44.080
Where would you suggest that they start?

00:16:44.110 --> 00:16:46.269
What should they first look at?

00:16:46.269 --> 00:16:47.860
What would be their first steps?

00:16:48.455 --> 00:16:51.485
I think the first steps would be to sit down and see where they were now.

00:16:52.684 --> 00:16:56.945
So I think probably for a practice that's already, frankly, you know, not one that's starting from scratch.

00:16:56.945 --> 00:17:06.875
One that's already functioning is actually go, let's get some sort of measure of where we are now, because I think I know where we are, but I actually don't know surely what everybody thinks.

00:17:06.875 --> 00:17:07.285
So let's.

00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.210
Get a picture of where everybody's at, where everything's at.

00:17:10.660 --> 00:17:26.589
Um, it's, uh, I think it's a good idea to get someone outside to do that because if you run that they're not going to trust necessarily, particularly if there is some underlying not, you know, not trust there that you might try and interpret comments and feedback is from them and then point fingers.

00:17:26.650 --> 00:17:28.089
And you don't want that to happen.

00:17:28.089 --> 00:17:31.509
If you get it done externally, you get a report that doesn't show all of that stuff.

00:17:31.539 --> 00:17:33.369
And so, um, you can take away any.

00:17:34.130 --> 00:18:10.605
Any risk of personalization, I guess, out of it, get a measure of where things are at and the meter will give you some ideas of how your leadership has Jude, what sort of support you need the other vision and values actually meaningful to the staff, because maybe, you know, yeah, they're there, but we don't even know what they are, or, you know, you're asking questions about, can they, can you actually say them, you know, if I went and asked any of your staff, could they tell me what they were through to, you know, Whether the rostering systems working for them, whether that proficiency in a professional development and their position descriptions, do they respect, you know, their leaders or do they feel like they respect us as a team member?

00:18:10.605 --> 00:18:12.335
You know, lots of, all of those questions.

00:18:12.545 --> 00:18:12.605
Yeah.

00:18:13.234 --> 00:18:18.724
Figure out where the practice is at, and then sit down with someone and make a plan about what needs to happen.

00:18:18.724 --> 00:18:27.174
And often it's going to start with, as a team collaboratively, we need to sort out the vision and values again, and you could say, but my team changes and therefore we're going to have to keep changing.

00:18:27.214 --> 00:18:29.795
No, no, you just need to do it once as a team and get it right.

00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:32.069
And then start building it in.

00:18:32.069 --> 00:18:37.529
And then as new people come on board as the practice grows or whatever, they come into to that culture that you've already got going.

00:18:37.529 --> 00:18:45.180
But if you've got a culture where the vision and values are just a piece of paper in a dusty drawer, um, they aren't actually been enacted anyway.

00:18:45.180 --> 00:18:46.200
So get them sorted out.

00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:47.339
What do they actually mean?

00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:48.750
What does each value mean?

00:18:49.410 --> 00:18:59.430
If, if there's some indication there and even if there's not to be fear that leadership needs, some maybe that needs some support with leadership has get some leadership support and then.

00:18:59.795 --> 00:19:08.884
Stop working with the team on working out some KPIs for improving it for the, what what's most important this year, what are we going to do and really engage in it.

00:19:09.224 --> 00:19:10.174
and you've got to buy into it.

00:19:10.174 --> 00:19:16.595
You've got to walk the talk, but without fail, the staff told me that their leaders walked the talk for these three practices.

00:19:16.625 --> 00:19:23.075
They were absolutely there doing what they see, everything that came out of the mouse was actually what they.

00:19:23.569 --> 00:19:29.359
Mint can, what, what would you say to a clinic that saying I don't have time for that.

00:19:29.930 --> 00:19:31.250
I can't sit around.

00:19:31.730 --> 00:19:35.509
I can't organize morning teas for all my team at one time.

00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:39.799
I can't take half a day off for.

00:19:40.714 --> 00:19:42.694
Team team meetings.

00:19:42.904 --> 00:19:43.115
Yeah.

00:19:43.144 --> 00:19:44.904
So there's, there's a couple of things.

00:19:44.904 --> 00:19:50.154
And again, that needs time to sit down and think about why, why is the, why are you saying I can't?

00:19:50.605 --> 00:19:56.634
Um, is it, I can't, because actually you're trying to do two or maybe three jobs, which I think is the case for some veterinarian.

00:19:56.634 --> 00:20:02.515
So we're trying to be a full-time clinical vets and full-time practice managers and everything else that you need to be in business.

00:20:02.845 --> 00:20:06.255
And it might be that you've actually got to sit down and look at the business model and go.

00:20:06.470 --> 00:20:08.420
Actually, I can't do three jobs.

00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:11.839
I've got to break that up and we've got to employ someone to do different parts of it.

00:20:12.069 --> 00:20:15.339
And for that, you have to let go to be fair to do that.

00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:17.369
but you also have to the budget that as well.

00:20:17.369 --> 00:20:19.920
So putting that into your budget, how are you going to make that work?

00:20:20.339 --> 00:20:23.400
Um, and then the solutions don't need to come from you.

00:20:23.430 --> 00:20:25.319
You just need to lead the solutions.

00:20:25.529 --> 00:20:27.559
The team have the solutions you've got.

00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:29.740
So much expertise and a team.

00:20:30.220 --> 00:20:36.789
You've just got to give them the floor to be able to come up with the solutions and they donate some boundaries around what's realistic and what's not.

00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:43.500
Um, and you know, you might have some knowledge that they don't have, but together you can, you'll be able to work out solutions and.

00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:47.680
You can't fix everything tomorrow, but you can prioritize and go.

00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:48.700
These are actually yeah.

00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:49.690
Three priorities.

00:20:49.690 --> 00:20:54.160
So it might well be that the first priority is you're understaffed because actually you're doing three jobs.

00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.349
So you need to sort that out that might be priority.

00:20:56.349 --> 00:20:59.500
Number one, then you sort that out, which then rolls onto the next thing.

00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:09.150
The three clinics that you ended up studying were their teams, the employees and their teams.

00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:15.339
Or full time, 40 hour a week employees, or?

00:21:16.470 --> 00:21:16.829
Okay.

00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:17.910
So what did that look like?

00:21:18.690 --> 00:21:24.359
Um, so often they were four day, week vets or pat time vets and vet nurses as well.

00:21:24.450 --> 00:21:34.079
They worked with, uh, What all of these teams decided as a lot of the staff that they wanted that were important to their teams didn't want to couldn't work full time.

00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:39.509
I mean, some people can't, they can't function full-time maybe because they've got so much else on or they simply don't want to.

00:21:40.170 --> 00:21:50.940
Um, so what these teams had is they did have a plethora of pat timers and they said this challenges on that, which there is, and that's around communications because sometimes one team member will never work with another team member.

00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:52.920
So it's really important to be aware.

00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:55.450
Um, and formulate a communication plan.

00:21:55.450 --> 00:21:59.890
That's going to work when you've got part time teams, but there's a patch on teams that are happy.

00:22:00.220 --> 00:22:09.970
And when they're communicating well between each other, so good quality notes, good handovers clarity on who's on at what time and whose roles are, what people's roles are.

00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:13.809
Um, they had happier staff staff's needs would bring me to when you ask.

00:22:13.849 --> 00:22:16.250
Then the question around what's the rostering working for them.

00:22:16.309 --> 00:22:19.039
You had it really high, um, reports on that.

00:22:19.369 --> 00:22:33.410
And you know, these practices did everything they could to try and work a roster that allowed, um, their staff to go and coach a sports team, or watch the kid at assembly who was getting an award or, you know, those things that become really, really important.

00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:43.400
And actually I think what happens and from what I could see as the employee and, you know, in my own team, I've got a lot of part timers and we have a lot of flexibility and it's about that.

00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:53.059
They give back twice as much as you give them, because they're so grateful that you let them go to assembly or let them coach the sports team or whatever it was that, you know, they, they needed to do.

00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.289
and, and you think some people do take the mick but I don't think they're there.

00:22:57.585 --> 00:23:04.244
They're not the majority, the majority of people just are so grateful and will give back and give extra all of the time.

00:23:04.244 --> 00:23:08.654
And we all know, you know, um, and veterinary clinic staff at giving all of the time, because.

00:23:09.474 --> 00:23:14.095
Animals don't get sick with an eye-opening hours, um, or the consult.

00:23:14.095 --> 00:23:20.424
Doesn't always, you know, the last 15 minute concept could end up being a couple of hours by the time things are done for the client.

00:23:20.434 --> 00:23:22.345
So, you know, they give all the time.

00:23:22.494 --> 00:23:27.234
And so being able to give back to them is really, really important and, and it can be done, but it's about communicating.

00:23:27.535 --> 00:23:31.265
And one of the things I did talk to a practice that we reported on in my masters.

00:23:31.494 --> 00:23:35.575
They said, I want to tell you about our wellbeing journey and how we staffed up.

00:23:35.634 --> 00:23:41.545
And they staffed up in a way there, and they are still on the wellbeing journey, but they fixed their staff up.

00:23:41.815 --> 00:23:44.365
What they did was they gave too much autonomy to the staff.

00:23:44.365 --> 00:23:47.244
So they forgot to say, this is our values.

00:23:47.275 --> 00:23:47.785
We're here.

00:23:47.785 --> 00:23:49.345
We're a customer service business.

00:23:49.345 --> 00:23:53.515
Therefore we need to have X number of staff on between these times and we need this.

00:23:53.785 --> 00:23:57.625
And so they had staff just choosing when to work and when not to work and signing in and out.

00:23:57.625 --> 00:23:58.884
And there was all sorts of, kind of.

00:23:59.404 --> 00:24:03.125
And, and now that he laughed with me and said, yeah, I know it's pretty logical.

00:24:03.125 --> 00:24:03.424
Isn't it.

00:24:03.424 --> 00:24:14.375
Now when you look at it, but so the business has to give a frame around it and say, as a team, this is what we need, but you guys let us know how you're going to make that work so that it's going to work for you guys too.

00:24:14.585 --> 00:24:14.825
Yeah.

00:24:14.855 --> 00:24:19.055
And then people will give and take some people go, well, I can't make it that time, but I'll get the next one, you know?

00:24:19.295 --> 00:24:20.765
And it was the same as sharing holidays.

00:24:20.765 --> 00:24:22.204
I've heard from practice.

00:24:22.204 --> 00:24:23.855
I don't do a great job at sharing, you know?

00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:27.519
The Easter and the Christmas holidays and these practices shared them really well.

00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:30.369
They had it all documented about who had had what holiday.

00:24:30.369 --> 00:24:39.369
And if people wanted to swap, it was fine, but they all showed even as an it, and it wasn't a case of the bosses going well, we don't, we're the boss now we don't work Christmas.

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.549
I worked at as well, but on the same rotation

00:24:42.549 --> 00:24:52.200
Talking about rosters last year, I placed a vet who went from locum to permanent.

00:24:52.855 --> 00:24:59.365
And the reason she was a locum was because she liked working three or four days a week.

00:24:59.634 --> 00:25:02.694
And she liked being able to go overseas.

00:25:03.025 --> 00:25:03.805
That hasn't happened.

00:25:04.194 --> 00:25:11.934
But the, the clinic that wanted to hire her said, yeah, she wants to work three days a week.

00:25:11.964 --> 00:25:12.924
These are the days.

00:25:13.315 --> 00:25:19.704
And they were broken up and Monday, Wednesday, Friday, that's no good to anybody that wants to take to go away.

00:25:20.214 --> 00:25:31.494
And so we went back and we negotiated and started off, well, the other vets work, these rosters, we can't possibly change these guys to match this new incumbent.

00:25:31.494 --> 00:25:32.335
It just won't work.

00:25:32.845 --> 00:25:41.365
So I went back to them and said, let's, let's pretend we have this clean white board where everybody can put their wants.

00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:48.190
On this as to what days they want to work and it start afresh, everybody.

00:25:48.250 --> 00:25:53.440
And that team got juggled around and they got juggled around to the way they wanted.

00:25:54.130 --> 00:25:55.900
It was such a great outcome.

00:25:56.069 --> 00:25:59.069
Yeah, no, look, I believe watching those three practices that did there.

00:25:59.069 --> 00:25:59.849
I believe it.

00:26:00.265 --> 00:26:01.075
That can happen.

00:26:01.375 --> 00:26:06.505
We don't have to stick to these traditional rosters or, you know, it's always been like that.

00:26:06.505 --> 00:26:07.285
So why would we change it?

00:26:07.285 --> 00:26:17.365
I can remember when, uh, one of the practices I worked and, um, when I was still in clinical practice, we worked something like eight till two, and then we would work again from four to six and had this two hour.

00:26:17.744 --> 00:26:26.954
Now, if you've got a family and stuff that doesn't work well between 12 until you'd go off, depending on when you're finished and back on at four and it didn't work, you know, but.

00:26:27.144 --> 00:26:32.214
Somebody could work for eight hours at the beginning and someone you could never cross over and run concerts at a different time.

00:26:32.214 --> 00:26:35.605
I know, a locum I did, they said we start consults at four.

00:26:35.605 --> 00:26:42.055
And I said, well, no, I'll start them at two because clients want to come in, no, run them and used to be busy as till four o'clock.

00:26:42.055 --> 00:26:47.634
And then I could go at four and I'd done more consults than I would've done between four and five, you know, just because.

00:26:47.849 --> 00:26:51.569
I was allowed to change it, but so many places you just note, we've always done it this way.

00:26:51.569 --> 00:26:52.559
This is what the clients want.

00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:56.569
Exactly, exactly.

00:26:57.109 --> 00:27:00.410
These clinics actually ask clients what they wanted.

00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:02.720
Was that part of the, the values.

00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:03.200
Do you know.

00:27:04.089 --> 00:27:07.119
Actually, I didn't ask that question, so I can't answer it for them.

00:27:07.809 --> 00:27:09.910
Um, but you know, you can tell from the clients are happy.

00:27:09.910 --> 00:27:19.390
So I guess that was a good thing and yeah, they didn't seem, um, there wasn't feedback from the client, you know, and the feedback that I got from the clients, it wasn't anything about this, too many pat time stuff.

00:27:19.390 --> 00:27:21.940
I don't see the same person there wasn't any of that.

00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:28.269
Um, Sort of feeling because you do hear that feeling sometimes you hear it, but is it true?

00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:29.440
Yeah, I'm not sure.

00:27:29.779 --> 00:27:30.109
Yeah.

00:27:30.430 --> 00:27:38.589
I hear it a lot from visits, but I wonder whether it's vets think the clients think that or because it really is, is true.

00:27:38.980 --> 00:27:45.970
I think that there's probably a balance between seeing someone differently every single time you go to having some continuity between two or three people.

00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:48.069
I was thinking about, you know, the local GP practice.

00:27:48.910 --> 00:27:51.730
They are so big now GPS don't work five days a week.

00:27:51.730 --> 00:27:56.259
They work three approximately, and they do six set of 10 shifts or something like that.

00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:59.440
Um, so they've usually got an off site that does the other days during the week.

00:27:59.440 --> 00:27:59.609
So.

00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:04.519
It minimum, you say two, maybe three because of the holiday, like him as well.

00:28:04.569 --> 00:28:16.000
Francesca, you're speaking at, you're one of the speakers presenters at the INSEAD VNA in ZBA conference next month in June.

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:16.420
Yes.

00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:17.049
Yes.

00:28:18.099 --> 00:28:21.039
This is sort of your topic.

00:28:21.819 --> 00:28:27.339
What sort of clinician do you think will benefit most from attending?

00:28:27.835 --> 00:28:28.825
Your presentation.

00:28:28.914 --> 00:28:41.654
So I guess my aim and my presentation is to keep regurgitating the research, you know, refer back to that and that, but it's actually to start changing the narrative to now to let's work together to start making some changes in how do we support each other?

00:28:41.654 --> 00:28:53.505
What are the things that we need to do, helping, maybe helping people that are teamed to actually have a look at the blind spot a little bit, and try and dig into that a little bit and heavyweight, but more of a think about.

00:28:53.984 --> 00:28:57.825
Playing really, really critically reflective about what they currently do.

00:28:57.855 --> 00:29:00.555
And have they actually tried things or is it a mess?

00:29:00.555 --> 00:29:05.984
What they're thinking, you know, about how they do things and encouraging people to be brave into.

00:29:06.849 --> 00:29:09.430
Get seek feedback and make some change.

00:29:09.430 --> 00:29:20.019
So I think anybody that's a practice manager or in a leadership role in a vet practice sitting around a board table, any of those things or anyone who aspires to get into leadership.

00:29:20.019 --> 00:29:30.339
So you're maybe aspiring to be a veterinary nurse or lead, you know, lead veto of a team because you don't have to own the business to do leadership.

00:29:30.339 --> 00:29:31.869
There's all sorts of leadership roles.

00:29:31.869 --> 00:29:35.349
And actually coming into that, I, I believe that.

00:29:35.950 --> 00:29:41.769
We should try and encourage as many people on the team to lead aspects of the practice as possible because they take ownership of it.

00:29:42.130 --> 00:29:44.440
And so I think there's a lot that can be learnt.

00:29:44.829 --> 00:29:52.839
Certainly as the owner of a practice, you sit the culture and you sit the, the, um, the overarching strategic vision and values and things.

00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:57.849
But everybody within the team contributes to that culture and the leadership and buying and things.

00:29:57.849 --> 00:30:05.049
And I, you know, so I think anyone who aspires for positive change in the industry for the wellbeing of staff, which will.

00:30:05.394 --> 00:30:16.045
Move on to being the wellbeing of animals and the clients, and the literature will tell you that that also improves the financial outcomes for the practice as well.

00:30:16.375 --> 00:30:19.105
Should, you know, come and listen and be part of the group.

00:30:19.105 --> 00:30:29.575
Cause I think what would be great is to start getting groups that talk to each other, and maybe I know there's this whole secretive can talk about the business, but actually if you start sharing a little bit more.

00:30:30.714 --> 00:30:34.134
You're all going to grow your business rather than taking from each other.

00:30:34.134 --> 00:30:37.704
You know, we've all got things this year can actually be a lot more collegial.

00:30:37.704 --> 00:30:47.545
I think, I think we like to think we're collegial and we are in a way, like when we go to conference, we're pretty sociably, collegial, but business wise, we're not always as collegial as perhaps we could be.

00:30:48.015 --> 00:30:55.575
So somebody listening to this podcast, they could be thinking what that I've got.

00:30:55.605 --> 00:30:59.595
What sort of things might they be considering the staff turnover.

00:31:00.295 --> 00:31:01.414
absenteeism..

00:31:01.974 --> 00:31:02.184
Yeah.

00:31:02.214 --> 00:31:03.204
So turnover.

00:31:03.204 --> 00:31:09.775
Um, so the literature will tell you that it's anything turnover around 15% per annum is problematic.

00:31:10.015 --> 00:31:18.654
You're always going to get the odd staff has to leave because stuff, people will go back to where their families are often, or maybe a partner gets a job overseas, things happen.

00:31:18.654 --> 00:31:20.125
You can't do anything about those ones.

00:31:20.575 --> 00:31:28.865
Um, but if it starts to crawl higher than that, Um, most of the literaturewill tell you it's around usually around the team culture in the management of the team.

00:31:28.894 --> 00:31:30.244
And that's the reason that people leave.

00:31:30.755 --> 00:31:32.125
They might not tell you that either.

00:31:32.244 --> 00:31:33.625
They might not be honest about why.

00:31:34.494 --> 00:31:38.095
Um, but if you're too nervous, creeping over 15%, that would be a risk.

00:31:38.365 --> 00:31:50.355
And yeah, absenteeism, if you've got people that are, you know, using all of this at clave, or maybe even taking unpaid days when they, you know, you use all their sick leave, it doesn't mean they're lazy or that they're.

00:31:51.009 --> 00:31:53.680
Got a hang over or whatever it can often mean.

00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:57.640
They actually physically cannot come to work because the culture is so toxic.

00:31:57.670 --> 00:31:58.839
They're not going to be able to cope.

00:31:58.869 --> 00:32:00.670
They know they're not gonna be able to cope that day.

00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:18.045
Um, and so that, that can be some, you know, it's worthwhile looking at that in saying wonder why that, you know, actually asking why that's happening, that the thing about, um, Absenteeism from sick leave, but also people changing, moving on to other jobs as two for one is it's really expensive to re-employ staff.

00:32:18.105 --> 00:32:22.005
It's not just the cost of advertising or the recruiter.

00:32:22.464 --> 00:32:23.664
Well, the cost of the recruiter.

00:32:23.694 --> 00:32:24.654
Absolutely not.

00:32:24.654 --> 00:32:32.964
It's actually, it's up to, depending on the lecturer, two to four times, the annual salary per four, a year for one, one change over.

00:32:33.234 --> 00:32:38.515
And that's because this slower, um, it takes another team member out to actually train them up.

00:32:38.785 --> 00:32:45.115
The trust with the clients is not there because they don't know them in a new that, you know, there's a whole pile of things that build into it.

00:32:45.115 --> 00:32:47.424
So actually, if you were having a.

00:32:47.714 --> 00:33:00.224
You know, and some practices, Centive this concept of a veterinary nurse or any of the allied federal officials has been kind of disposable and they'll just leave every two years and that's fine, but actually you could pay them double and keep them.

00:33:00.795 --> 00:33:04.394
And that would cost you about the same as them changing over every, every two years.

00:33:04.454 --> 00:33:05.805
That's that's the reality.

00:33:06.255 --> 00:33:08.144
And what also happens is.

00:33:08.539 --> 00:33:22.819
If savvy new employees will look at the practice and find out what your turnover is, and they'll see how long your staff have been there and the ones that are worth employing probably won't apply because there'll be wondering why they'll be thinking there's a toxic environment in there.

00:33:22.819 --> 00:33:24.500
There's some reason why people are leaving.

00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:26.000
I don't necessarily want to be there.

00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.759
And it's a small industry word gets around as well.

00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:36.160
So it actually will negatively affect your versus even more because you might not, you might get the best step counts for your jobs as well.

00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:37.599
Yeah, I know.

00:33:37.829 --> 00:33:38.369
Listeners.

00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:48.690
I did a recording on an episode on what people are looking for when they start at your place and how you can get more bang for your back.

00:33:48.809 --> 00:34:02.579
So I'll put a link to that in the show notes page as well, because people are doing their research online before they start with a clinic, they are going online to find out what people are saying, what employees are saying about that clinic.

00:34:03.444 --> 00:34:05.365
In terms of job to satisfaction.

00:34:05.634 --> 00:34:09.925
And these are, termed the hygiene factors, there's working conditions.

00:34:10.074 --> 00:34:24.835
So what are the conditions that you're working under, you know, 50, 60 hours a week in a building that's running water on the insides of the windows ends, you know, it's freezing cold or boiling hot, or, you know, really noisy and you can't get away from the noise or there's no tea room note.

00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:26.650
That kind of thing.

00:34:26.980 --> 00:34:35.530
And when we, and I'm talking about a companion animal practice, I guess if we talk about working conditions as you know, and what you're expected to on farms that would fit as well, um, coworker relations.

00:34:35.530 --> 00:34:38.650
So what's the team like what's the culture like is everybody getting on?

00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:43.230
That's really important having a set of policies and roles, um, and.

00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:54.550
I'm sort of really cautious of policies and roles in the fact that policies and roles within needed and when they're actually functional, not roles that are roles for roles that are never, that everyone just ignores anyway.

00:34:54.550 --> 00:35:01.329
But actually, if we need a policy or a role for whatever reason say might be around, say radio, radiation, safety.

00:35:01.465 --> 00:35:01.735
Okay.

00:35:01.735 --> 00:35:04.585
You need to have some roles around there and we need to all follow them.

00:35:04.885 --> 00:35:06.295
That's that's fine.

00:35:06.295 --> 00:35:09.534
But some, some rules might not be, you know, might not be necessary.

00:35:09.925 --> 00:35:19.375
Maybe post something up and I'm pulling this out of my head rather than from the research, but you know, some places you'll see, they've got a blanket, no cell phone policy.

00:35:19.885 --> 00:35:22.389
Well, Is it actually functional?

00:35:22.570 --> 00:35:23.590
Why are we saying that?

00:35:23.590 --> 00:35:25.710
You know, so what, what is the role around it?

00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:30.820
You know, is it actually done in consults because we might use it as a calculator or as a photo as a camera.

00:35:30.820 --> 00:35:31.510
And do you know?

00:35:31.510 --> 00:35:37.210
So as the role functional, um, and as it necessary, but having the ones that are in place in place,

00:35:37.590 --> 00:35:42.000
or everybody knows there's a no cell phone policy, but nobody takes any notice of it.

00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:42.690
Exactly.

00:35:42.929 --> 00:35:44.869
So there's absolutely no point in having that role.

00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:45.650
Fits the case.

00:35:45.650 --> 00:35:45.920
Yeah.

00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:59.239
Um, but I think you should always, um, if you're going to have a positive voice, why are we having that role and then, um, use the five whys and then whatever your answer to that is, ask it again, why whatever they'd outsource and dig down to figure out why that role is.

00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:00.530
And you might forget you don't need it.

00:36:00.739 --> 00:36:00.800
Yeah.

00:36:00.864 --> 00:36:03.894
Or actually it's this part of the role that we need, but not the rest of it.

00:36:03.925 --> 00:36:04.914
Supervisor quality.

00:36:04.914 --> 00:36:10.195
So that's around leadership particularly, and it's not just the owner, that's the leadership of teams as well.

00:36:10.195 --> 00:36:11.994
If you put a team leader in place as well.

00:36:11.994 --> 00:36:17.875
So making sure that all the leadership has got support and mentoring, um, some sort of professional development plan about leadership.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.230
And base wage and salary.

00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:20.969
So that's a hygiene factor too.

00:36:21.510 --> 00:36:21.929
Okay.

00:36:22.409 --> 00:36:31.559
Um, and if you go and look at Maslow's hierarchy, which everyone's probably familiar with you, basic human needs, you know, you need to be able to eat and drink and have shelter, no, those sort of things.

00:36:31.590 --> 00:36:36.389
Um, so there are the hygiene factors and then the motivator factors are around job satisfaction.

00:36:36.869 --> 00:36:39.559
So the things you look at around achievement.

00:36:40.130 --> 00:36:53.179
Now can I achieve what I need to, and it might be in the case of, um, success in cases, uh, it might be achieving, maybe he wants to do some extra study and achieving that and never been able to achieve what it is you want to achieve recognition for what you do.

00:36:53.179 --> 00:36:54.500
So just simple.

00:36:54.500 --> 00:36:55.010
Thank you.

00:36:55.010 --> 00:37:05.780
Sometimes might be, um, all of these practices had regular staff awards, you know, which everybody voted on and they tried to share them around, you know, for recognizing cool things people had done.

00:37:06.114 --> 00:37:07.525
Have some sort of responsibility.

00:37:07.525 --> 00:37:09.594
And I mentioned that earlier around leadership, like.

00:37:10.809 --> 00:37:15.820
Is it possible to find something that everybody can take some ownership for and have some responsibility for in the practice.

00:37:15.820 --> 00:37:19.150
And you actually defer to them for how how does that happen?

00:37:19.329 --> 00:37:23.590
The work itself, I don't think has virtually ever a problem of veterinary practice.

00:37:23.889 --> 00:37:26.349
People go to work, to fix animals and care for animals.

00:37:26.349 --> 00:37:30.900
So I don't think the work itself is something we need to worry too much about advancements.

00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:32.590
So people want to be able to progress.

00:37:32.590 --> 00:37:37.510
So a veterinary nurse doesn't graduate as a veterinary nurse and just want to go in there and do the same old job.

00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:39.880
They want to be able to progress, um, in a vet.

00:37:40.614 --> 00:37:42.235
The sign, the majority of the same.

00:37:42.235 --> 00:37:43.885
So like I said earlier, yeah.

00:37:44.244 --> 00:37:50.215
Creating professional development plans to help them progress how they want to, wherever it is, and either create the roles for them.

00:37:50.244 --> 00:37:59.965
Cause I think there's opportunity in most practices to do that, but if there's not, you know, they're going to become a specialist, let them go give them the wings and then let them go and personal growth.

00:37:59.965 --> 00:38:02.335
So that fits in that as well with their professional development.

00:38:02.335 --> 00:38:09.954
And also I think leadership development as well in other kind of dare I say it, that soft skill kind of development as well around communication.

00:38:10.135 --> 00:38:12.085
Well-being all of those sorts of things too.

00:38:12.085 --> 00:38:13.704
So allowing personal growth.

00:38:14.244 --> 00:38:30.445
And I guess, you know, in some ways, if we interpret that a little bit too, there's also allowing people through the rostering system to ex-US coaching at a local club, or, you know, those sort of things going and being the team coach, because that will feed back into the practice because I'll learn things from dealing with other people as well.

00:38:30.945 --> 00:38:37.000
Did any of the clinics have common development themes?

00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:39.429
They all had KPIs around wellbeing.

00:38:39.699 --> 00:38:48.429
And so they were ensuring that staff were getting access to either professional development or as a team working together on looking after their own wellbeing.

00:38:48.849 --> 00:38:54.369
Um, I don't think they didn't have specific themes in terms of everyone was doing one thing, but they were.

00:38:55.420 --> 00:39:00.909
Trying to make the needs of the staff that were, that were in the practice in terms of what professional development they wanted.

00:39:01.269 --> 00:39:11.630
And it's absolutely not just about what the person wants, because it might be that as a practice, if you do a performance review process, well, you actually are looking at.

00:39:11.875 --> 00:39:16.764
Maybe there are some things that, some weaknesses for that person that they can develop that will be better for the practice too.

00:39:16.764 --> 00:39:18.175
So it's a, it's a two way thing.

00:39:18.175 --> 00:39:20.335
It's not about giving everything to the employee.

00:39:20.335 --> 00:39:26.635
It's about working together to identify where the growth areas and needed sort of for the practice, but for them personally as well.

00:39:27.465 --> 00:39:27.824
Yeah.

00:39:28.215 --> 00:39:33.820
Did the clinics conduct exit formal exit interviews?

00:39:34.030 --> 00:39:35.639
So these one's dead.

00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:37.860
Um, but they all had really, really low turnover.

00:39:37.949 --> 00:39:51.510
Um, and so we took, we spent more time talking about how they had modified their employment processes to choose the right people, because the ones that they had lost, um, that they could tell me about what all ones, where they had made a poor employment, and then they could pinpoint what they'd done wrong.

00:39:51.690 --> 00:39:52.139
Yeah.

00:39:52.695 --> 00:39:59.054
I believe exit interviews are a good idea, but again, I'm not a hundred percent sure that people will be completely honest.

00:39:59.355 --> 00:40:00.224
If the person they're.

00:40:00.255 --> 00:40:02.844
The reason that they're leaving has conducting the exit interview..

00:40:03.295 --> 00:40:12.275
Yeah.Exit Interviews and employee reference checks are something that we, we VetStaff can do for clinics.

00:40:12.275 --> 00:40:15.784
If that's what they want, a hundred percent independent and confidential.

00:40:16.394 --> 00:40:22.539
The Hertzberg Model is a really good one, I think for picking up the majority of the other aspects.

00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:35.349
I think the other thing I just looking through the last time I presented this to two other things, one was that these practices recognize when mental wellbeing, because I think there's still a little bubble of a culture out there where some people that they don't recognize it, um, or because they don't.

00:40:35.619 --> 00:40:41.170
Suffer stress or, or don't acknowledge that, that I'd say she say don't acknowledge that there's suffer streets.

00:40:41.170 --> 00:40:47.500
That don't recognize that another other people, but they also don't understand that the levels can be quite different than other people in the way they react to things.

00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:53.139
So these practices were very clear on, they acknowledge it and they put things in place for the four people to manage it.

00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:58.840
The other thing which I thought was really interesting with these, because as an educator, we.

00:40:59.635 --> 00:41:08.394
Hit upon clinics that refuse to have students, we'll just make the student experience really bad and others that just are amazing and make these wonderful experiences.

00:41:08.394 --> 00:41:15.204
And I was interested to know, did these practices that were well, what was the relationship with students?

00:41:15.295 --> 00:41:21.565
And so, and these three practices in fact in two of them, the students were invited to be part of the focus groups that I did at the practices.

00:41:21.864 --> 00:41:28.130
And they.often deferred questions to them they wanted to hear what they thought and the students' reports on those practices were amazing.

00:41:28.130 --> 00:41:33.809
They said best experiences I've ever had felt so welcome and felt like I was part of the team you know, all of it.

00:41:34.610 --> 00:41:35.929
Everything was really positive.

00:41:35.929 --> 00:41:37.099
They've picked in the practice.

00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:39.769
We love having students cause they teach us new stuff.

00:41:40.099 --> 00:41:43.519
They help us to make sure we know stuff cause we can explain things to them.

00:41:44.059 --> 00:41:52.670
Um, and so they really, um, so my, I guess my hypothesis that came out of that was that or proposition was there pips of a practices really well.

00:41:53.150 --> 00:41:58.460
Then they're going to find it a lot easier to welcome and stuff because they're not having to look after their, their own self.

00:41:58.460 --> 00:41:59.989
So they're able to give to others.

00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:14.510
Whereas if the practices unwell and maybe they're not accepting students or students having a poor experience as a, as an indication of an unwell practice, because the staff just actually don't physically have the energy to deal with students because they're just.

00:42:14.869 --> 00:42:15.889
Coping with surviving

00:42:16.659 --> 00:42:17.880
Talking students.

00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:35.909
Did you do this research because it was something that Francesca was interested in or did you do it because you could see that was research, then it can be included and curriculum.

00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:41.639
I Think I go back to the fact that, um, I'm a typical.

00:42:42.369 --> 00:42:43.239
Female child.

00:42:43.269 --> 00:42:47.230
Iguess who wanted to be a vet from when I was five and I saw myself going into practice.

00:42:47.230 --> 00:42:52.090
And I guess, you know, I saw myself I'd work in clinical practice and I'd own a practice.

00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:56.889
Do you know, like kind of traditional kind of staffing when I started to get into the realities of it.

00:42:57.414 --> 00:43:04.514
It's not all, you know, what you perhaps see as a five-year-old and you know, not all puppy kisses and kitten cuddles.

00:43:04.835 --> 00:43:07.125
And I don't think, I thought it was quite there yet, but you know what I mean?

00:43:07.155 --> 00:43:09.914
You know, just a little bit of a roast under glass as a feat.

00:43:10.304 --> 00:43:16.295
And when you go in there and you see that, there's just some, it's difficult to have a family and work and practice.

00:43:16.574 --> 00:43:20.894
See my, my colleagues and friends leaving practice or going into other things.

00:43:20.894 --> 00:43:23.085
I see students coming back.

00:43:23.619 --> 00:43:30.280
You know, they spent thousands training and within five years, I think 85% of vet nurses are out of the industry within five years.

00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:30.969
Something like that.

00:43:32.289 --> 00:43:34.480
You know, it's such a valuable profession.

00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:47.199
Vets cannot function without veterinary nurses, you know, um, We put a lot of investment into, it uses a lot of great career options outside of clinical practice, but we still need visits for short of them now, you know, we still need them.

00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:49.690
And I think it's all of those things together.

00:43:50.019 --> 00:43:52.929
So I want to make it better for, I can't do it on my own.

00:43:52.929 --> 00:43:55.389
I want to be part of the movement to make it better.

00:43:55.389 --> 00:43:59.139
I think there's some amazing people out there that are doing some really amazing stuff.

00:43:59.139 --> 00:44:05.659
And I think we need to get those voices heard a bit better, and I think we need to share the stories of success of it better.

00:44:05.949 --> 00:44:11.815
And so that was, I guess, That's my motivation around doing it in terms of part of the curriculum.

00:44:11.815 --> 00:44:17.394
I guess we try and teach awareness of wellbeing and, you know, compassion, fatigue, and all of those kinds of things.

00:44:17.394 --> 00:44:21.355
And also we try and teach empowerment of the professionals too.

00:44:22.014 --> 00:44:25.525
It's not a, it's about being a suit of really about not just putting up with.

00:44:25.914 --> 00:44:32.184
But English, no, no, the, the brush or the dust, you know, but actually to stand up and say, I'm a valuable member of the team.

00:44:32.184 --> 00:44:35.844
This is where I can contribute and how I can make it better for everybody.

00:44:36.054 --> 00:44:36.385
Yeah.

00:44:36.434 --> 00:45:00.945
That I think is one thing for nurses that one of the good things that has come out of the, with the borders being closed, I mean, we've had shortages for a long time, but with the borders being closed and no, no excess of vets coming in that nurses are now being asked to, to use their skills, the skills that they learned.

00:45:01.485 --> 00:45:05.744
And it's what I'm hearing is it's increasing the job satisfaction as well.

00:45:06.125 --> 00:45:08.315
Yes, I would have definitely heard the same thing as well.

00:45:08.315 --> 00:45:13.175
I think our next challenge now is to look at, um, modeling around.

00:45:14.010 --> 00:45:15.750
Actually increasing the ratios.

00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:25.710
So these practices, I think the new Zealand's roughly one-to-one across the country, one to one and a half, one, one wheat to one allied beneficial or one and a half hour Viton professionals.

00:45:25.769 --> 00:45:31.230
On average, these practices were one to three, but we know overseas it's one to four to five.

00:45:31.989 --> 00:45:32.300
Yeah.

00:45:33.010 --> 00:45:33.179
Yeah.

00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:37.190
I got a bit excited the other day when I got a one to two.

00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:39.269
Yeah.

00:45:39.269 --> 00:45:45.090
So these ones were it peak times of the days, they were one to three, so they included a receptionist.

00:45:45.389 --> 00:45:52.469
And, uh, so between reception staff support staff, but obviously the model was overseas would show one to four.

00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:55.409
Um, and someone was telling me about one to five as well.

00:45:55.409 --> 00:45:55.769
So.

00:45:56.429 --> 00:46:02.429
No, I, I, my experience is a wonderful, was brilliant and I loved working on that practice and I felt like I had good job satisfaction.

00:46:02.429 --> 00:46:03.869
And I think the staff did as well.

00:46:03.869 --> 00:46:10.650
So the other staff, so the new research that I'm doing, it's multifaceted and I'm going to be collecting some data around utilization.

00:46:10.650 --> 00:46:18.090
And then we want to go back and present some models around utilization as well, because at the moment that we get asked, so tell us how to do it.

00:46:19.110 --> 00:46:22.079
And although we can sort of go a year, but there's nothing clear.

00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:23.880
So I want to create something that's much clearer.

00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:24.329
Yeah.

00:46:24.659 --> 00:46:25.920
Yeah, I, I roadmap.

00:46:26.010 --> 00:46:26.550
Yes.

00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:27.269
Yeah, yeah.

00:46:27.269 --> 00:46:30.690
And how do we move into that space and also, yeah.

00:46:30.989 --> 00:46:35.909
Get rid of that concept of, but then our nightly spits or I'll.

00:46:36.494 --> 00:46:38.585
I'll have to do more after hours and things like that.

00:46:38.594 --> 00:46:39.514
How do we move from there?

00:46:39.525 --> 00:46:49.485
And I, you know, I know in McLaughlin's, I'm pretty sure it was Iain McLaughlin or no, it wasn't that some Seton Butler's just done the map for Vet council has a different way of looking at after hours.

00:46:49.485 --> 00:46:53.954
But I also know when it's put on screen in front of a whole pile of each, you get quite a different.

00:46:54.125 --> 00:46:57.364
Sort of viewpoints on, on whether that would work or not.

00:46:57.445 --> 00:46:57.565
Yeah.

00:46:57.625 --> 00:46:59.574
That will work for them, but

00:46:59.815 --> 00:47:00.235
yeah.

00:47:00.235 --> 00:47:00.445
Yeah.

00:47:00.474 --> 00:47:06.155
Well, I'd rather use the phone I because I don't trust the person answering the call.

00:47:06.894 --> 00:47:07.855
Yes.

00:47:09.054 --> 00:47:15.985
So you do get some, you know, some interesting feedback on it, but I think we need to stop moving and to, you know, into that sort of space as well.

00:47:15.985 --> 00:47:21.054
And so yeah, hopefully doing a little bit of modeling will help with it too and show that it won't.

00:47:21.824 --> 00:47:24.474
Will actually have positive impacts because vets can be vets.

00:47:25.215 --> 00:47:25.934
Don't think so.

00:47:25.994 --> 00:47:27.704
They'll always be something, you know, 3:00 AM.

00:47:27.704 --> 00:47:29.204
I could talk for hours on all of this.

00:47:30.744 --> 00:47:42.125
I'd love to actually what I would like as after the conference to hear what, what transpired for you?

00:47:42.184 --> 00:47:50.525
Did you, you know, have you got suddenly people lining up to, to do temperature checks on their clinics?

00:47:51.329 --> 00:47:51.809
Sure.

00:47:51.869 --> 00:47:52.170
Yeah.

00:47:52.260 --> 00:48:06.630
Yeah, that would be, but I'll put a plug in here for if any practices that are interested in helping share with me some data, without giving away all their business secrets, to help me with stowing, some modeling around charity, discounting, staff utilization and how you invoice as well.

00:48:06.989 --> 00:48:11.190
And again, I'm not asking for all your bottom line figures, small, broader stuff.

00:48:11.190 --> 00:48:13.409
So if anyone's interested, I'd be really interested in.

00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:15.650
And how, how would they sit?

00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:17.110
What sort of, how would they send it?

00:48:17.474 --> 00:48:18.224
Data to you.

00:48:18.255 --> 00:48:20.054
I'm going to have a survey that will go out.

00:48:20.054 --> 00:48:23.114
So the survey will be published eventually and spread around.

00:48:23.114 --> 00:48:27.914
But if anyone's interested in getting it directly, I can say somebody who's got like.

00:48:28.335 --> 00:48:32.715
A listener where who's doing community work, charity work.

00:48:32.835 --> 00:48:34.664
If they email you.

00:48:35.144 --> 00:48:35.324
Yeah.

00:48:35.445 --> 00:48:35.864
That they,

00:48:37.324 --> 00:48:42.934
but even if they're willing to share how they, um, how they put together and voices, cause I'm interested in utilization as well.

00:48:42.934 --> 00:48:46.144
So, you know, what, what ratios do they have and then how are they showing.

00:48:46.585 --> 00:48:47.755
No, the support.

00:48:48.114 --> 00:48:50.454
So there's different aspects of this project are multifaceted one.

00:48:50.454 --> 00:48:54.295
I'm going to collect all the data in one guy and then break it into three projects.

00:48:54.295 --> 00:49:00.565
So I'm looking at how things are invoiced for, you know, like, uh, do we have an insert technician?

00:49:00.655 --> 00:49:03.114
Are they invoice for how's that made up?

00:49:03.144 --> 00:49:04.255
How are you costing for that?

00:49:04.405 --> 00:49:05.275
Where did that figure in?

00:49:05.275 --> 00:49:06.804
I'm interested in where the figures come from.

00:49:06.804 --> 00:49:10.105
You know, when you create a, a theater fee.

00:49:10.889 --> 00:49:14.429
Did you just pull it out of your heat or how, how was it made out so much?

00:49:14.429 --> 00:49:14.789
Doesn't it?

00:49:14.789 --> 00:49:16.409
And then how do you present it to the client?

00:49:16.769 --> 00:49:19.800
Cause I'm also, and I don't need the figures.

00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:22.019
That's just the breakdown of how it's done.

00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:25.019
And then I'm interested in how clients interpret different bills.

00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:29.670
So, you know, with very little information, more information, lots of information.

00:49:29.789 --> 00:49:35.670
So there's, there's, it's a multifaceted thing, but I can send out all the information about what I'm after, but if anyone's interested in helping.

00:49:35.730 --> 00:49:35.969
Yeah.

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.260
And then I want to do some models around discounting and charity and how that could become a.

00:49:39.855 --> 00:49:43.635
Basically a really positive part of veterinary practice rather than we shouldn't do that.

00:49:43.635 --> 00:49:45.315
And so we'll keep doing it under the table.

00:49:45.755 --> 00:49:50.974
So if I put your email as a link on the show notes to this page yep.

00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:53.460
What's your deadline, Francesca.

00:49:53.730 --> 00:49:55.219
I'm collecting data this year.

00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:57.659
Maybe get one project written up by the end for a year.

00:49:57.690 --> 00:49:59.030
We've sort of got to get started.

00:49:59.059 --> 00:50:01.289
We're just waiting for ethics approval and then we'll be away.

00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:03.630
So over the next three or four months collecting data.

00:50:03.699 --> 00:50:03.909
Yeah.

00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:04.389
Yeah.

00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:13.699
If you're interested in knowing more about being part of a veterinary kickass mastermind group, then please get in touch.

00:50:13.730 --> 00:50:16.210
julie.south@xtra.co.nz.

00:50:17.329 --> 00:50:18.409
I'll put links.

00:50:18.755 --> 00:50:23.985
On the show notes page for this episode, pawsclawswetnoses.fm.

00:50:25.385 --> 00:50:45.565
Likewise, you want to know more about doing exit interviews or running an independent temperature check and clinic staff temperature check then please get in touch as well, because these are all sorts of things that that staff can do for you.

00:50:45.925 --> 00:50:48.414
We don't charge body parts.

00:50:49.215 --> 00:50:51.255
Thank you for listening.

00:50:51.525 --> 00:51:06.255
Remember to click the follow button wherever you listen to your podcasts so that you don't miss out on future episodes, actually, as well as so that you don't miss out on future episodes of paws, claws, wet noses.

00:51:06.494 --> 00:51:10.094
It also applies to other podcasts that you listen to.

00:51:10.335 --> 00:51:13.635
So just hit the follow button, click the follow button.

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It doesn't cost you anything, and you'll be notified straight away.

00:51:18.815 --> 00:51:21.724
Coming up on paws claws with noses.

00:51:21.755 --> 00:51:22.894
We have Dr.

00:51:22.894 --> 00:51:26.474
Bryan Gregor of the VetPodcast.

00:51:27.094 --> 00:51:27.454
Dr.

00:51:27.454 --> 00:51:39.094
Bryan as I have said before, he's a former clinic owner now retired living the good life, making cheese, getting as much fishing in as he can.

00:51:39.414 --> 00:51:43.295
in and around Timaru while he's podcasting.

00:51:44.010 --> 00:51:50.250
As I mentioned last week also, I feel pretty privileged to have caught up with Dr.

00:51:50.250 --> 00:52:00.119
Bryan on the show because his podcast, the podcast, as what paws claws wet noses has dreams of being when it grows up.

00:52:00.795 --> 00:52:06.945
Also there's more so wait up because we have also coming up, Dr.

00:52:06.945 --> 00:52:11.684
Megan Alderson of the Strand Veterinarian in Parnell, Auckland, Dr.

00:52:11.684 --> 00:52:23.085
Megan is one of New Zealand's great advocates of, and has lots of fun with the serious topic of veterinarian, mental wellness and clinic.

00:52:23.744 --> 00:52:25.244
Thank you for listening.

00:52:25.605 --> 00:52:35.965
Ka kite ano kia kaha manaaki te Atua Paws claws and wet noses is sponsored by VetStaff.

00:52:36.195 --> 00:52:42.195
If you've never heard of VetStaff, it's New Zealand's only full service recruitment agency.

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100% dedicated to the veterinary sector VetStaff has been around since 2015 and works nationwide from Cape Reinga to the bluff and everywhere in between as well as helping Kiwis VetStaff.

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